Smithers MINNEAPOLIS

‘I am optimistic for the future of this country’

me too!! me too!!

guarded optimism, be gentle barack, i’ve been hurt before….

I can’t wait for government sponsored health care!!! O wait I already have it. It sucks worse then going to a local bar to cure my problems.

I guess I can’t complain because I didn’t vote… Wait yes I can this is America.

@Lalla - How’d you get that broken collar-bone treated in August, whiskey?

When my children were toddlers, I demonstrated against the Vietnam War. When I had the chance, I helped organize communities to start recycling centers after Earth Day. When our children needed alternatives in schools, I worked with other citizens to apply for curriculum grants sponsored by the National Science Foundation. All this effort was inspired by the book “Rules For Radicals”, a book recommended to me by a Community Organizer. In the last few years of the 90’s, I was privileged to help organize a community arts project that served to promote and support a vibrant Minneapolis artist community. Art-A-Whirl is still alive and going strong. It thrills me now to see Barack Obama, a disciple of that very same book by Saul Alinsky become President of the United States. A dream fulfilled is a dream sanctified.

Little D. It started off with a PBR pill at the track then a daily dose of Mickeys 40 oz.

I got this cool blue sling from the VA and absolute no info on what I should be doing with it. All I got was “Looks like a nice clean break, good job.”

If health care truly becomes government run then I hope little Smithers never gets sick. I also see this as an opportunity for some good “black market health care.”

Now taking applications from Doctors who want to help people and make money.

@Lalla:

How much is the VA healthcare premium?

Thanks Lalla, I didn’t know how they treated you but that sounds pretty pare for course unless you would have needed surgery.
Also, you’re insurance is paid for by the service you gave to our country and I hope you didn’t have to pay anything for it. (Unless you picked out the designer sling with bling)

Hey Lalla, how’s it feeling these days? (My left shoulder is still screwed up from my crash on that same night).

Here in Amerika the way it works is that you get half way decent and somewhat affordable health care if you work and your employer gives you a “plan”. Obviously you don’t fit into that category. So, how is that you wouldn’t benefit from some sort of universal health care system? Or, are you just railing again at how you’re getting screwed by the VA?

My “free” VA service cost me 8 years in the reserves a little time in a sand box, tons of mental anguish and a lot of problems. Sounds like a good deal eh?

When I did have a job, you would have never found me in a VA center. In fact when I have problems down here I go to the affordable clinic that all the low income go to or just don’t go at all. The VA is what it is… Government controlled health care. It’s good and Bad.

The collarbone is fine I think. I’ve raced on it many times and am now lifting light weights so… I am rocking it the way it is.

I would rather pay for a health care system that wants to make a profit (because the customer pays their bills) then a free one that doesn’t care if they help you or not (because the government gives them a guaranteed check.)

FYI I don’t think a socialized health care system could be implemented in just four years. It’s going to take a movement of a couple of terms.

I take issue with “half way decent” there are very few countries in the world that have better coverage then the people who are covered in the US.

VA is basically what “univeral” health care would look like, cause the US gov does such a fantasic (joke) job running things. It’s good for people who don’t have health care now, but sh!ty for people that do.

@monty p:

Its a shitty system per se because the VA makes do with the funding it is given, blame that on the politicos we (you?) elected.

BB - so do you think that the government would run a vastly different system under univeral health care?

Funny, I just had my employee benefits meeting.
30% increase in the bi/monthly premiums for the 80/20 plan with a deductable of $750, preventative all coveres. This works out to be about $200 a pay check.
Big push for Health Savings accounts. For someone who covers their family like me, preventative is fully covered, but anything else is out of pocket until you reach $10,000. Employer contribution to HSA for family is $1500 for the year.
There’s two other plans, one is the mack daddy that covers everything 100% but it’s priced sky-high and another that’s a little less expensive, but higher deductible then the one I described above.
Just 8 years ago you could get the whole family covered 100% for around $125 a pay period.
Mmmm, why does 8 years sound so familiar…

@monty p:

I’m not sure? I’d like to think it wouldn’t be a great idea to run it like the VA (which as I understand is one contiguous system), but rather like a form of “insurance”?

But I don’t the current system of hospitals/insurance/etc. is sustainable either.

I would rather remove insurance requirements from the employer, give people the money (as straight up compensation) and let them find insurance on the open market, something like form their own community based-groups, etc.

I think we agree, employers should not have to worry about health care. This puts US companies at a disadvatage and is not sustainable.

@monty p
What I meant by “half way decent” is what actually gets covered through your employer’s plan. I’ve certainly seen that same thing that Little D has as far as ever-increasing costs and less and less things covered with each new plan. Of course we get the same song from our HR people every time, i.e. you should feel lucky because they are giving us such a good deal.

I guess I should feel lucky after seeing what COBRA coverage costs, and after seeing the difference between my parent’s actual medical bill amounts vs. what Medicare actually pays. There is a huge cost cliff that you fall off of if you don’t stay within the bubble of our existing medical plans. It’s scary. Realistically, we don’t have any other choices.

I would rather pay for a health care system that wants to make a profit (because the customer pays their bills) then a free one that doesn’t care if they help you or not (because the government gives them a guaranteed check.)

Really? Just because a system is for-profit doesn’t mean that it will generate a good product/service. There is a free (black) market for cancer treatments in Mexico that largely just rips people off. Is this good? The problem with for-profit is that the profit is the goal rather than a patient’s well-being (financial/mental/emotional as well as health). By your line of reason, I could say the same about for-profit in so far as they don’t give a crap about my health so long as they get paid. And I don’t have a medical degree — how do I know if the operation/transplant/whatever was sub-par and I got ripped off?

Besides, a single-payer system does not, as many who argue against it seem to suggest, mean that a government or one of its agencies needs to be performing the medical service. It only means there is one payer negotiating better rates for a larger group of users. This already happens with current insurance companies.

I’m not going to argue, though, that this alone might lower the cost of medicine. Our litigious nature is a big part of it — costs of insurance for doc’s go too, along with a bunch of other reasons.

One of the problems we can address, however, is the existence of too many hands in the proverbial basket looking to come out with a portion of the pie. This is what our current system encourages.

Finally, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with profiting off of the health and well-being of fellow human beings. Let’s not forget that we are citizens as well as consumers. Some things (such as healthcare) ought not be determined by the markets.

The problem with for-profit is that the profit is the goal rather than a patient’s well-being (financial/mental/emotional as well as health).

If every one dies won’t be very profitable. Of Course I know that paragraph was just an oversimplification so I won’t nit pick.

Lalla is right in that for profit firms will be better. Sure it costs more money but every thing that is useful does. I don’t really have to know much about the health care tho since my grant gives me full health care if I’m full time.

Morgan - Don’t you get money from your tribe too?

Finally, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with profiting off of the health and well-being of fellow human beings. Let’s not forget that we are citizens as well as consumers. Some things (such as healthcare) ought not be determined by the markets.

Hmmmm, can I send you the bill for 18 years of higher education/training?

Spot on Buckeye.

@Buckeye Rider: I don’t follow; can you expound?

If every one dies won’t be very profitable. Of Course I know that paragraph was just an oversimplification so I won’t nit pick.

Who’s talking about death?

You say you don’t mind/prefer our current system; easy to say when you apparently have full coverage — what would you think about paying face value out of pocket for the medical services you may need? How does for profit and leaving things to the market make things good?

@checkbook:

The amount of time it takes to become an MD/PhD board certified cardiologist. My guess is that if becomes a non-profit type “service”, you’ll get non-profit type innovation and care.

I will say, removing non-profit status from many of the so-called “community hospitals” might prove “useful”. (in other words, they are as profit seeking as anyone, they just don’t have to pay any taxes on it)

@Buckeye Rider: thanks.

I should have been more clear — I don’t believe the field of medicine should be a giant charity. That aside, even in our current system all the service providers and researchers (innovators) money (profit) is not the sole motivator. I have a number of close friends — one I’ve known since our freshman year in undergrad — who are in medicine for a variety of reasons, none of which is the money. Still, the fact that there are some who are driven by the cash-monies and others who are not would remain in either circumstance.

I do believe we’d do better with a single payer system on the “insurer” end. I believe companies are not like individuals; for profit companies are not moral entities — it isn’t part of their basic constitution. So when it comes to providing coverage for individuals who are going to generate a loss to insure, these folks often get the Heisman (in one way or another). Companies are responsible to its shareholders; the government is responsible to its citizens.

And it goes beyond the insurance set-up. Why are drug mfg’s allowed to sell their products to doctors? Does this not put the patient’s best interest on the back-burner? Consider the uber high cost of many drugs — I don’t know off hand what the figures are but the pharmaceutical industry spends way more on advertising and sales than it does on research. Most of the high costs consumers are paying go directly toward the advertisements we all see on teevee and in various other mediums. So, here too, one could argue that innovation suffers in the for-profit (and we’re talking blind profit, here) system. I’m not saying these companies ought to be non-profit charities, but would the innovation and service generated suffer from less cheddar spent on adv/sales?

it’s like anything. If you have an open market with competition, people will have the opportunity to choose what is best for them. Health care is like anything else, there are scarce resources, constraints, etc. What has been proved throughout history is that the most efficient allocation of resources has been the open market. Yes, there are problems with this. But it works better than any other system. Having one entity paying all medical bills is ridiculous. What is their incentive? How do they make their decisions, what do they base them on? One of the reasons health care is so expensive is that, through licensing there are significant barriers to entry. Currently there is NOT a free market for health care, so going to more regulation, or a universal health care plan may not make things better. Another interesting fact about universal health care? If a patient does not have to pay directly for their care, they will use more of it. Thus the healthcare providers will be further burdened with more patients, and for ailments that ordinarily wouldn’t require a doctor visit. For example, if you don’t pay your utilities in an apartment, you tend to leave the lights on longer, take longer showers, same behavior will occur in healthcare. Then how does the system decide who gets cared for first? Then they have to arbritarily make decisions. It’s the same problems the soviet planned economy faces, there is too much information and too many decisions to be made by a few planners, no matter how smart they are…

i meant faced instead of faces…

Why does this conversation so frequently boil down to comparrison to Soviet Communism?

Who says individuals wouldn’t pay their share of the medical costs under a single payer system? I certainly didn’t.

And you think people don’t go to the ER for a head-cold under the current system? Oh, right, the current system isn’t a free-enough market as it is. Forgot about that convenient caveat.

Look, I’m not advocating free healthcare. Nor am I suggesting that we eliminate competition. I did point out there are serious flaws within our current for-profit system (I listed two specifically) that should change. I’m compelled to ask, are you arguing against addressing these flaws?

Sorry, saying just let the markets handle it doesn’t cut the mustard. Most efficient does not mean best and certainly does not mean most appropriate.

becuz the soviet market was a laboratory to see what happens under a communist socialist system. Read economics books and you will see many references. If you want to bandaid and piecemeal and still have a crappy system, go ahead and tweak components of the current system. You’ll still have people with no insurance going to the er to get cold medicine. If you want real change, do something radical, like letting people be more responsible/accountable for their own personal care.

Don’t buy your arguement Skibby.

I’ve worked in an ER and we had Medicare patients showing up with their whole family to get cold medicine because they missed their clinic appointments, but
I’ve also seen the family’s that had limited insurance that decided not to go to the clinic when their kids were sick because they didn’t feel they could afford it.
Guess what, they ended up with pneumonia and had to be hospitalized at a much, much steeper cost to the family and us as tax payers through.

that is exactly my argument….

Cost should not be put on health care for preventative medicine or required diagnostic tests and required surgery.
All free to consumer with supplemental insurance for “private” or specialized things like breast implants.

@skibby: well, it’s a relief to know that we agree about the accountability piece.

But equating single party payer to communism or even socialism is incorrect. You’ll find an equal number of “economics books” that provide an just as many references to the contrary of what you’re arguing.

And dude, the idea would be to make insurance more affordable — hence trying to end the need for folks going to the ER for a free (and uber costly) visit for cold medicine.

Clearly, you harbor some degree of disdain for government and believe in a very loose definition of the word “citizenship” whereas I feel otherwise. Neither is going to convince the other to adopt his views. I guess let’s leave it at that.

@skibby: that is exactly my argument….

??? How is a pure market going to remedy this?

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr200 4/nf20040421_2730_db_080.htm

Ok, read it and it’s bunk.
You can’t compare your health care to buying a CD player, it doesn’t make sense. You buy the wrong type of CD player and maybe your remote control doesn’t give you the best options.
You buy the wrong drug and from the article “Both kinds provide equal pain relief, but the cox-2 drugs may reduce the chances of stomach bleeding or ulcers.” You may start to have bleeding ulcers. If you put a cost on this and you start to have bleeding ulcers because you bought the cheaper medicine, you’re back at the doctor getting more treatments.
So, you educate yourself on consumer reports about what kind of CD players are good and bad and the best deal.
How do you do that in health care? Self-diagnose yourself on WEB MD?

wow — this thread has drifted a bit from little smithers getting to grow up during an obama presidency…

i don’t think anyone is talking about doctors not continuing to get paid well for their years of education/training… and i think competition within the health care system is a good thing. hospitals with reputations of hurting people should loose “customers” if they don’t improve their quality of care.

a counter to the argument that, if you make care too accessible the system will bog down, is that if people are going to the doctor more, the are generally healthier ‘cuz they are addressing issues early. businesses ultimately benefit from having less absenteeism and more productive (err capable?) workers.

Another case where we all do better when we all do better…

“hospitals with reputations of hurting people should loose “customers” if they don’t improve their quality of care.”

This doesn’t always happen under the current insurance system. You end up stuck going to the same place because they take your insurance or you don’t have insurance and have to go to this place.

Your counter arguement is right on the money. (No pun intended)

So, you educate yourself on consumer reports about what kind of CD players are good and bad and the best deal.
How do you do that in health care? Self-diagnose yourself on WEB MD?

To quote Skibby: “that is exactly [part of] my argument…”

** I haven’t had time to read the linked article yet but will.

I just self-diagnosed myself as an asshole on WebMD.

i’d suggest a primary care doctor. Although pcd’s are low on the totem pole of med students, because the money is in specialization. And how is that dictated? How insurance companies, dictated by govt policies (medicare, etc) make payments…

in a free market, primary care doctors could be run like a mcdonalds (go ahead little d, get all literal here and say that french fries aren’t like band-aids, etc) and through efficiencies make a PROFIT, all the while serving customers needs…

Checkbook is dead on correct in his/her analysis. Disdain, resentment,
whatever it is. I, too, feel strongly that there are community needs(citizenship) which should be provided equally to all. Affordable, not free, healthcare is but one example.
However, anyone can google for a supportive article, done too frequently, but it and all other economic free market principles still fail to answer a question.
I’ll ask it again…
How is a free market going to solve this?

“I’ve also seen the family’s that had limited insurance that decided not to go to the clinic when their kids were sick because they didn’t feel they could afford it.
Guess what, they ended up with pneumonia and had to be hospitalized at a much, much steeper cost to the family and us as tax payers through.”

I guess in the free market world you would say too bad so sad. Well… until it happened to you or maybe a parent. Maybe the free marketers would say yes, but the family could now competitively shop for inexpensive pneumonia treatments. Oh, but those inexpensive treatments are only offered in Minneapolis where economies of scale bring down the cost of specialized, quality care. Oh well, they can just go to their rural Deer River Community Hospital for treatment and pay a little more. Oh, I forgot. That rural community hospital had to close last year because it couldn’t compete. I guess that is a good thing in the free market world. Congratulations! Wal-martization of healthcare. Completely free markets make winners and losers. That’s not acceptable in access to healthcare.

@Smithers: Only if you’re 40 or older

@Skibby: sorry skibs XO