Custom Frames
October 18th, 2007 |Richard Sachs on BKW:
I don’t understand the word “custom.” I just wanted to make bikes for people who wanted to use them on the road. When I started I just thought, “I want to do what I want to do.” I got to do that from the beginning. But because I came up in the era of Bicycling road tests, I had to deal with people who were reading the reviews. I was always conflicted that the people who were good racers would give me very few measurements. On the other hand, consumer types would come in and ask can you make this like a DeRosa if a DeRosa was recently reviewed. Transposing specs from one bicycle to another is fraught with peril, especially if some specs are misunderstood. In that ‘70s era, I found that many folks took the monthly road tests too literally. Of these, some would ask the framebuilders to copy this, or make it like that. If you’re new and have no backbone, you find yourself executing these orders. One such frame was for my pal Rudy, and when he went to the Tour de l’Avenir he had a terrible experience because the bike was poorly thought out, and not suited for European stage racing; Mike Neel really dressed him down for bringing that bike. That was in ’78. Since then, I make my bike not your bike. How can they be custom if I decide what goes where? I’m a guy who makes what I think is my bike. Though the order precedes the bike, it’s not “custom.” The term “made to measure” comes from tailoring and is used to differentiate between that style and “custom” and “bespoke.” If a tailor has a style, you don’t go to him and ask him to do more than to make it fit. You don’t say, “Make it look like Karl Lagerfeld or Calvin Klein.” Most people understand now you don’t tell a builder how to build a bike. You don’t show up with a blueprint. My view is there might be a million choices, but there’s only one right one.
I have had some custom frames in the past. I dictated to the frame builder what I wanted in terms of seat angle, head angle, seat tube length and top tube length. Do I have some special physiological issues that demanded a custom geometry? No. Did I even know what I was talking about when I made these geometry requests to the frame builder? No. Do I ride a custom frame now? No. Can I tell the difference? No.
The best frame I have ever ridden was stock geometry from the manufacturer. The worst frame I have ever ridden was stock geometry from the manufacturer.
Do you need a custom frame? Beats me. (But pressed for an answer I would say probably not.)
Do I have a problem with small frame builders taking some measurements from a rider in order to build a frame to suit their body? No. (Although I am very skeptical that most of these people actually need much, if anything, in the way of “customization” from the builders stock geometry. And they probably don’t get it.)
Do I think there are some production frame companies that are using the term “custom” in order to sell you something that you think you need? Yes. Do you really need it? Beats me. (see above) Do you think that you really need it? Maybe. Are you sure that your problem is not that your current bike is just a piece of crap?
Would a “custom” version of frame X really ride better than a stock version of frame X? Based upon my experience I sincerely doubt it.
But, by all means, if your bank account is flush enough spend those bucks!
Suckers make the world go round.
17 Responses to “Custom Frames”
There are two reasons why I will be getting a custom frame.
1. I’m 5′11″ and have an uber-short 31.5″ inseam, so my proportions do not lend themselves well to stock geometry.
2. I break shit. Off-the-shelf frames are too light, too flimsy for my big ass.
Prepare to be flamed!
i could buy 2 of the “custom” frames i ride for what i’d pay for one of yours and still have money left over… mine is “stock” and i’m not flush with cash, but i might be a sucker
Prepare to be flamed!
Fire extinguisher on hand, all set here.
T3 must have the line on cheap Waterfords, then
There are a ton of designs out there to satisfy anyone’s specifications, but first you have to find it, then you have to accept that maybe it’s not going to be totally unique. At that point you come around to realizing “Hey, this Heron/Rivendell/et al is barely going to save me a dime versus buying straight from a local frame shop like Kvale, Goodrich, Brown, Osell, Peacock Groove, or Clockwork.”
I don’t get custom frames — I basically wait for Quality to get the clue. Right now my commuter is a Cross-Check, and the Surly Traveler’s Check looks pretty sweet, and so does the Salsa Casseroll — now if they’d just make it in scandium, preferably with an eccentric bottom bracket, and call it a Campeon of some sort so it actually kind of feels custom… for me.
Tuffy, per usual, this post is too long. I’ll expect your report on my desk by 4 pm today.
Let put this spin on the subject; Perhaps custom-sized frames are silly to purchase, but a “specially-designed” frame may become something more. A work of art. Of design.
There is something to be said about a hand-made frame’s quality. Its design. Especialy compared to a stock one-of-a-million.
You gotta give credit to the craftsmen in the biz. A custom Jonny Cycle may not make you faster, but come on, what a thing of beauty. And we all care what our bikes look like.
fpa
Okay, here’s my take. Probably 85% of people can ride most any vendor’s mass-produced bike with a proper fitting, assuming they offer gender-specific models. Maybe 95% of people can ride ride a mass-produced bike from a particular vendor (i.e. I can ride a BMC but I’d never be able to ride a LeMond). Where does that leave the remaining 5%? And how does being born with, say, a short torso, or long femurs, or short arms or whatever make them suckers? Lennard Zinn isn’t in business because people have too much money sitting around, he’s in business because his customers can’t buy a bike off the shelf. Not that he doesn’t sell bikes to people who could possibly fit a stock frame as well - value is what people assign to it by definition, and gorgeous welds, beautiful paint and a sweet ride have value too. If I had the dough and two years to wait I’d be buying a Vanilla, and I don’t consider myself a sucker! Making a BMC fit by getting a super long stem, zero setback seatpost and saddle shoved forward and yet still not being quite where I should be over the pedals can never be the same as riding custom.
Wow, I was totally expecting a more passionate response on this subject! Smithers you’re going to have to do a better job pushing people’s buttons on equipment choice. How about a Campy/Shimano post?
Maybe 95% of people can ride ride a mass-produced bike…
Those are the people that I am talking about anyway. Some would have you believe that 100% of people would benefit from a custom frame.
95% of people fit into a Nike shoe size, some need to have custom shoes made. That does not mean that 100% of people need to have custom shoes made.
gorgeous welds, beautiful paint and a sweet ride
I’m pretty much just talking about custom frame for geometrical reasons. If you see your bicycle as a piece of art rather than a tool to get a job done than by all means spend away. As a competitive cyclist I would prefer to spend my money on something that makes a bigger potential difference in the outcome of the race. Others may feel differently. In terms of aesthetics there is no right or wrong answer.
i ride a custom serotta and it is the best bike i’ve ever owned. the seat tube is 50.5cm and the top tube is 58.5cm. the caddy doesn’t sprint like my old stock frames did, but it sure as hell feels right. I ride an oversized TT bike with an extremly negative and long stem. I’m lucky because HED VO3 used 11.5cm head tubes for all of their frame sizes so a medium had the same head tube length as the small. The VO4 has 2cm increments. Because of the nature of myt TT position and the negative stem, this bike fits great and gets me into a good position. I can’t say the same for any stock road frame. When I buy a track bike, it’s going to be custom - and I’m going to make fun of smithers lame stock frame.
I’m going to make fun of smithers lame stock frame.
I’ll keep a keen ear ready for the fun making each time I lap your ass.
So, it may be the case that not 100% of bike riders have outright *need* for a custom frame - but if you’re a framebuilder who does custom, are you really going to shoo away customers coming your way with cash wanting custom frames?
are you really going to shoo away customers coming your way with cash wanting custom frames?
Of course not. A fool and his money as they say…
hey, it all makes the same noise when it hits the ground.
The hard part for 99% of riders in getting a bike to fit is knowing what fits.
I have a hobby where I take my wife to bike shops to see what they put her on. She’s 5′ with a 26″ inseam. I have her on a 650c wheeled trek (that fits but should still be smaller) and it’s amazing the number of high end shops that try to put her on a 54 just because it’s a “woman’s geometry” and it’s in stock.
It has nothing to do with need, and everything to do with want. Most of us don’t need half of the stuff we ride but we buy it because we like it. Supply and demand economics at it finest.
While I agree fundamentally with this post, I’d like to point out two variables on a bicycle that have changed a lot in the last 10 years which significantly affects the position of the rider.
1st - Head Tube Length has grown terribly long. This is most likely due to the largest demographic purchasing bicycles predominantly, Road, and or Hybrid Bikes, are for the most part, between the ages of 35-55. On paper, this all seems like a good thing until you actually study the human body and how the relation of the riders seat height to their bar height affects a huge number of variables such as the activation of the riders muscle groups, weight distribution, and so on.
FYI Product Managers - Longer ain’t always better.
2nd – Stem Angles have gotten horribly standardized and shallow. Back in the day, a proper road stem had a 17 degree angle. Now the average is around 5 – 10 degrees. This allows for a stem that can go ‘AC/DC’, and is does allow for less ‘SCUES’ throughout the entire supply chain, but it does not allow for a person in a shop to get some riders down to the the necessary bar height relative to the seat height.
And when I say some, I’m not inferring to a 1-2% here, it is more like over 10%, and possibly up to 20% of all active cyclists have their position jacked because of these two variables that have migrated in the last 10 years.
All that said, back when I was working for a certain custom carbon fiber frame manufacture, we couldn’t make enough frames with head tubes 2+ cm longer then our stock sizes! We had to stock forks with 350mm steerers standard because of all the requests we would get for longer head tube lengths.
Go figure.
As for my bike, for reference -
ST (c-c) : 49cm
TT (c-c) : 55.5cm
Head Tube Length: 100mm
Seat Angle: 73.5
Head Angle: 72.5
BB Drop: 7cm
Basically a bike design from the ’70’s, made in Ti.
- Ryan