Novice Bike Racers
December 7th, 2006 |I have been thinking about taking on a particular project for a while. The recent discussion about the MCF and its goals got me thinking about it again.
As Strats has stated, Bike racing is a very intimidating sport. It costs a lot of money to take up the sport, it takes a lot of time to train for the sport, there is a lot of intrinsic knowledge regarding bike racing that a novice racer is simply not going to be able to pick up on their own.
But reality is that the money and the training are the “easy” part. These are things that a novice racer will have already taken care of if they wish to start racing. The hard part is acquiring the knowledge that is needed in order to effectively participate in a bike race.
How do you in a group? How do you ride in a paceline? How do you pull through without destroying the paceline? How do you need to ride when you are in a road race versus a criterium? What are race tactics and how can you use them to your advantage?
A novice bike racer, with no other alternatives, is going to eventually figure out all these things on their own if they keep at the sport long enough. But it will take a good long time and, in the mean time, could result in getting dropped a lot or crashing or getting yelled at by their fellow race competitors. Not much fun for someone just getting into an already intimidating sport.
When I first started riding I was working at a bike shop and I would go out and ride with the manager of the shop each evening after the shop closed. He was my mentor for the first couple of years that I got into the sport and he basically taught me how to ride. He yelled at me when I did something stupid and he told me when I was doing a good job and he taught me how to be a safe and smart bike racer.
Back in the day, before the internet and before ProCycling and Cycle Sport magazine and before OLN and before World Cycling Videos, the only way to learn about bike racing is to find your own mentor that would show you the ropes and teach you the sport.
Now days you can pick up a Joel Friel book or check out the internet and get all the information you need on training by heart rate or watts, what is the super light equipment to ride and even get some advice on race techniques and tactics. But reading something and having someone tell and show you something are very different things.
So I have been thinking about the idea of starting a new bike race mentor coaching business. I think it’s great for those who have done some group coaching but, in order to really be effective, I think it needs to be more of a one on one coach/client relationship. The focus would not be on training or equipment as it is very easy to find this information on your own. The focus would instead be on technique and tactics and the practical aspects of being a “better” bike racer.
My hesitation to actually starting this business is:
• Am I really qualified to teach anybody anything?
• Would anyone really be interested in this service?
• Do I have the time to take on a project like this?
So, for now, I am still just thinking about it.
210 Responses to “Novice Bike Racers”
Am I really qualified to teach anybody anything?
Of course you are! “First of all, you need to find yourself a Ped…”
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
In all seriousness, yes.
Do I have the time to take on a project like this?
No. You didn’t even go to the last MCF meeting.
Sorry, I don’t know why I’m feeling so snarky lately.
Am I really qualified to teach anybody anything?
Of course you are! “First of all, you need to find yourself a Ped…”
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
In all seriousness, yes.
Do I have the time to take on a project like this?
No. You didn’t even go to the last MCF meeting.
Sorry, I don’t know why I’m feeling so snarky lately.
Am I really qualified to teach anybody anything?
Of course you are! “First of all, you need to find yourself a Ped…”
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
In all seriousness, yes.
Do I have the time to take on a project like this?
No. You didn’t even go to the last MCF meeting.
Sorry, I don’t know why I’m feeling so snarky lately.
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
i don’t even think i’m qualified.. i think either you’ve got the passion or you don’t.. and there are a billion factors to influence one’s ‘passion’
whenever i feel like i’m losing my spark i put in my 1986 CBS Sports Paris Roubaix special and ride the trainer. it’s what got me ‘passionate’ about bike racing.. you can’t teach that.
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
i don’t even think i’m qualified.. i think either you’ve got the passion or you don’t.. and there are a billion factors to influence one’s ‘passion’
whenever i feel like i’m losing my spark i put in my 1986 CBS Sports Paris Roubaix special and ride the trainer. it’s what got me ‘passionate’ about bike racing.. you can’t teach that.
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
i don’t even think i’m qualified.. i think either you’ve got the passion or you don’t.. and there are a billion factors to influence one’s ‘passion’
whenever i feel like i’m losing my spark i put in my 1986 CBS Sports Paris Roubaix special and ride the trainer. it’s what got me ‘passionate’ about bike racing.. you can’t teach that.
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
Hell yes! I am awesome! Just ask me sometime!
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
Hell yes! I am awesome! Just ask me sometime!
the bigger question; if you were new would you sign up with you?
Hell yes! I am awesome! Just ask me sometime!
I think this is a good idea, but what about a collective group?
Instead of a one on one thing take about 10newbies under yr wing and do a classroom session and some practical riding drills.
…
Tell me more about Saunders CycleSmart intiative…is there a possible tie in with that?
I think this is a good idea, but what about a collective group?
Instead of a one on one thing take about 10newbies under yr wing and do a classroom session and some practical riding drills.
…
Tell me more about Saunders CycleSmart intiative…is there a possible tie in with that?
I think this is a good idea, but what about a collective group?
Instead of a one on one thing take about 10newbies under yr wing and do a classroom session and some practical riding drills.
…
Tell me more about Saunders CycleSmart intiative…is there a possible tie in with that?
You’re qualified.
And I think people would be interested if it was marketed correctly. I think the the limiting factor is money – you’re right that people can get a lot of info off the Internet, but that one-on-one interaction is better (but newbies don’t necessarily realize that). If it’s a business for you, you obviously want it to be profitable, so it can’t be too cheap. So how much would someone be willing to pay? Cycling’s already an expensive sport, so at what point does your “coaching” become cost-prohibitive?
It’s a good time for something like this though – MWCMR is growing, and apparently there is something similar in the works for Cat 5 men.
You’re qualified.
And I think people would be interested if it was marketed correctly. I think the the limiting factor is money – you’re right that people can get a lot of info off the Internet, but that one-on-one interaction is better (but newbies don’t necessarily realize that). If it’s a business for you, you obviously want it to be profitable, so it can’t be too cheap. So how much would someone be willing to pay? Cycling’s already an expensive sport, so at what point does your “coaching” become cost-prohibitive?
It’s a good time for something like this though – MWCMR is growing, and apparently there is something similar in the works for Cat 5 men.
You’re qualified.
And I think people would be interested if it was marketed correctly. I think the the limiting factor is money – you’re right that people can get a lot of info off the Internet, but that one-on-one interaction is better (but newbies don’t necessarily realize that). If it’s a business for you, you obviously want it to be profitable, so it can’t be too cheap. So how much would someone be willing to pay? Cycling’s already an expensive sport, so at what point does your “coaching” become cost-prohibitive?
It’s a good time for something like this though – MWCMR is growing, and apparently there is something similar in the works for Cat 5 men.
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
Entire business (some very successful) have been built off this topic. SPBRC charges (ed) money for their racing class/program. There are also a fair amount of local coaches earning money for their efforts. Yes, some people would be interested. Enough to make it worth your efforts? Only you can decide that.
The focus would not be on training or equipment as it is very easy to find this information on your own. The focus would instead be on technique and tactics and the practical aspects of being a better bike racer.
I dont know if I would leave training out like that. In my experience the main difference between a career cat 4/5 vs. cat 3+ is a good solid training program. Buyng the bible doesnt ensure a person is going to understand what traininig really is or how to impliment things. Unless a person understand this basic idea (a solid training program), all the technique and tactics in the world will not amount to much because a person will likely never get the opportunity to try/apply anything (because they are dropped or red-lined).
Other food for thought
* How would you implement many group techniques and tactics without a pre-existing team/group?
* Mentoring is one of the best ways to pass on knowledge and experience. However, the experience usually needs to be in person and becomes less effective if tried/done virtually. Would this mean you would only target locals?
Just my thoughts worth about what you paid for them!!:)
JB
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
Entire business (some very successful) have been built off this topic. SPBRC charges (ed) money for their racing class/program. There are also a fair amount of local coaches earning money for their efforts. Yes, some people would be interested. Enough to make it worth your efforts? Only you can decide that.
The focus would not be on training or equipment as it is very easy to find this information on your own. The focus would instead be on technique and tactics and the practical aspects of being a better bike racer.
I dont know if I would leave training out like that. In my experience the main difference between a career cat 4/5 vs. cat 3+ is a good solid training program. Buyng the bible doesnt ensure a person is going to understand what traininig really is or how to impliment things. Unless a person understand this basic idea (a solid training program), all the technique and tactics in the world will not amount to much because a person will likely never get the opportunity to try/apply anything (because they are dropped or red-lined).
Other food for thought
* How would you implement many group techniques and tactics without a pre-existing team/group?
* Mentoring is one of the best ways to pass on knowledge and experience. However, the experience usually needs to be in person and becomes less effective if tried/done virtually. Would this mean you would only target locals?
Just my thoughts worth about what you paid for them!!:)
JB
Would anyone really be interested in this service?
Entire business (some very successful) have been built off this topic. SPBRC charges (ed) money for their racing class/program. There are also a fair amount of local coaches earning money for their efforts. Yes, some people would be interested. Enough to make it worth your efforts? Only you can decide that.
The focus would not be on training or equipment as it is very easy to find this information on your own. The focus would instead be on technique and tactics and the practical aspects of being a better bike racer.
I dont know if I would leave training out like that. In my experience the main difference between a career cat 4/5 vs. cat 3+ is a good solid training program. Buyng the bible doesnt ensure a person is going to understand what traininig really is or how to impliment things. Unless a person understand this basic idea (a solid training program), all the technique and tactics in the world will not amount to much because a person will likely never get the opportunity to try/apply anything (because they are dropped or red-lined).
Other food for thought
* How would you implement many group techniques and tactics without a pre-existing team/group?
* Mentoring is one of the best ways to pass on knowledge and experience. However, the experience usually needs to be in person and becomes less effective if tried/done virtually. Would this mean you would only target locals?
Just my thoughts worth about what you paid for them!!:)
JB
look at the tri model, everyone and their brother (at all levels) has a coach, some have more than one(motivational/technical/swim/etc).
Bike racers don’t seem to be quite as willing…
I honestly think, and people will think I’m crazy for this, that the best way to get into racing is WISport. You can learn at your own pace, never get pulled, always get your results, friendlier atmosphere, and you almost always get a trophy for reinforcement and to prove to your significant other you are great at this super expensive sport and probably going to be a TDF champ some day.
Once they’ve mastered pack riding in WISport races, they are ready for anything.
look at the tri model, everyone and their brother (at all levels) has a coach, some have more than one(motivational/technical/swim/etc).
Bike racers don’t seem to be quite as willing…
I honestly think, and people will think I’m crazy for this, that the best way to get into racing is WISport. You can learn at your own pace, never get pulled, always get your results, friendlier atmosphere, and you almost always get a trophy for reinforcement and to prove to your significant other you are great at this super expensive sport and probably going to be a TDF champ some day.
Once they’ve mastered pack riding in WISport races, they are ready for anything.
look at the tri model, everyone and their brother (at all levels) has a coach, some have more than one(motivational/technical/swim/etc).
Bike racers don’t seem to be quite as willing…
I honestly think, and people will think I’m crazy for this, that the best way to get into racing is WISport. You can learn at your own pace, never get pulled, always get your results, friendlier atmosphere, and you almost always get a trophy for reinforcement and to prove to your significant other you are great at this super expensive sport and probably going to be a TDF champ some day.
Once they’ve mastered pack riding in WISport races, they are ready for anything.
.. and learn to drink before legally able
.. and learn to drink before legally able
.. and learn to drink before legally able
would you offer pumpkin loaf as part of the program? I might consider.
would you offer pumpkin loaf as part of the program? I might consider.
would you offer pumpkin loaf as part of the program? I might consider.
The way I see it, you could not take a group of newbies out on a ride and effectively teach them anything as they are only going to learn at the pace of the least qualified newbie.
My thought would be to work with them initially to develop some fitness and then take them on some group rides with more experienced riders to work on their skills. Yes, this would only work for local riders.
How much would people pay for something like this? Depends how much they want. A ride a week? More than one ride per week? Fitness training in addition to skills training?
I don’t know, you could charge a little or a whole lot. You could charge one dude 10 million dollars and then retire.
The way I see it, you could not take a group of newbies out on a ride and effectively teach them anything as they are only going to learn at the pace of the least qualified newbie.
My thought would be to work with them initially to develop some fitness and then take them on some group rides with more experienced riders to work on their skills. Yes, this would only work for local riders.
How much would people pay for something like this? Depends how much they want. A ride a week? More than one ride per week? Fitness training in addition to skills training?
I don’t know, you could charge a little or a whole lot. You could charge one dude 10 million dollars and then retire.
The way I see it, you could not take a group of newbies out on a ride and effectively teach them anything as they are only going to learn at the pace of the least qualified newbie.
My thought would be to work with them initially to develop some fitness and then take them on some group rides with more experienced riders to work on their skills. Yes, this would only work for local riders.
How much would people pay for something like this? Depends how much they want. A ride a week? More than one ride per week? Fitness training in addition to skills training?
I don’t know, you could charge a little or a whole lot. You could charge one dude 10 million dollars and then retire.
Hey, speaking of pumpkin loaf, where’s this week’s weigh-in?
Hey, speaking of pumpkin loaf, where’s this week’s weigh-in?
Hey, speaking of pumpkin loaf, where’s this week’s weigh-in?
I say go for it. You’ve been racing longer then I have and a ton of people have asked me for training, riding, etc.. advice. You may want to look at the team that you started back in the GIS days (aka Birchwood) they have a huge club now and I know a lot of them are hungry for coaching and advice. And, if you put on the pink kit of old, they will think you are the godfather.
I say go for it. You’ve been racing longer then I have and a ton of people have asked me for training, riding, etc.. advice. You may want to look at the team that you started back in the GIS days (aka Birchwood) they have a huge club now and I know a lot of them are hungry for coaching and advice. And, if you put on the pink kit of old, they will think you are the godfather.
I say go for it. You’ve been racing longer then I have and a ton of people have asked me for training, riding, etc.. advice. You may want to look at the team that you started back in the GIS days (aka Birchwood) they have a huge club now and I know a lot of them are hungry for coaching and advice. And, if you put on the pink kit of old, they will think you are the godfather.
they will think you are the godfather.
As far as they should be concerned I am.
they will think you are the godfather.
As far as they should be concerned I am.
they will think you are the godfather.
As far as they should be concerned I am.
Exactly.. when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
Exactly.. when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
Exactly.. when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
I just started racing last spring, and I agree with the premise in the post. I have all the expensive equipment, and have been training in different sports before, so I am relatively fit, and know how to train. I realized after my first couple of races that my biggest problem is that I don’t know how to read a race yet. I know basic tactic stuff in theory, like when to save energy, and when to attack, but I find that in practice, I make a lot of mistakes, and really only one mistake is enough to screw up a race.
I ride with a local team, and the more experienced riders are great at giving pointers. I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
I just started racing last spring, and I agree with the premise in the post. I have all the expensive equipment, and have been training in different sports before, so I am relatively fit, and know how to train. I realized after my first couple of races that my biggest problem is that I don’t know how to read a race yet. I know basic tactic stuff in theory, like when to save energy, and when to attack, but I find that in practice, I make a lot of mistakes, and really only one mistake is enough to screw up a race.
I ride with a local team, and the more experienced riders are great at giving pointers. I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
I just started racing last spring, and I agree with the premise in the post. I have all the expensive equipment, and have been training in different sports before, so I am relatively fit, and know how to train. I realized after my first couple of races that my biggest problem is that I don’t know how to read a race yet. I know basic tactic stuff in theory, like when to save energy, and when to attack, but I find that in practice, I make a lot of mistakes, and really only one mistake is enough to screw up a race.
I ride with a local team, and the more experienced riders are great at giving pointers. I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
Sign up for the Smither’s $100/month race technique plan and you will find out.
Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
Sign up for the Smither’s $100/month race technique plan and you will find out.
Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
Sign up for the Smither’s $100/month race technique plan and you will find out.
I have thought about this a lot, primarily in the context of junior racers, but it could extend to any new racer.
I wonder if it would be feasible to attach a “Mentor Program” flyer to each 1-day license sold at a race? This flyer would provide information on how to link up with a volunteer established racer (since I think most newbies don’t immediately jump on to the MCF forum or listserv right away when they start racing – gotta contact them a different way). Said racer would be in daily/weekly contact with their assigned “newbie” and do stuff like:
-inform them of group rides and go on a group ride or two with their newbie
-help them with any mechanical/equipment issues
-carpool to a race or three with them
-primarily, just be someone to talk to and consult regarding any issues they may have
-independent of club affiliation
I’ve not thought in the context of charging for it. I would be willing to do something like this. I don’t think the effort level involved would have to be real high, and ideally people would be geographically co-located.
but the general “mentorship” idea is a good one, I think. better than a lack of it.
I have thought about this a lot, primarily in the context of junior racers, but it could extend to any new racer.
I wonder if it would be feasible to attach a “Mentor Program” flyer to each 1-day license sold at a race? This flyer would provide information on how to link up with a volunteer established racer (since I think most newbies don’t immediately jump on to the MCF forum or listserv right away when they start racing – gotta contact them a different way). Said racer would be in daily/weekly contact with their assigned “newbie” and do stuff like:
-inform them of group rides and go on a group ride or two with their newbie
-help them with any mechanical/equipment issues
-carpool to a race or three with them
-primarily, just be someone to talk to and consult regarding any issues they may have
-independent of club affiliation
I’ve not thought in the context of charging for it. I would be willing to do something like this. I don’t think the effort level involved would have to be real high, and ideally people would be geographically co-located.
but the general “mentorship” idea is a good one, I think. better than a lack of it.
I have thought about this a lot, primarily in the context of junior racers, but it could extend to any new racer.
I wonder if it would be feasible to attach a “Mentor Program” flyer to each 1-day license sold at a race? This flyer would provide information on how to link up with a volunteer established racer (since I think most newbies don’t immediately jump on to the MCF forum or listserv right away when they start racing – gotta contact them a different way). Said racer would be in daily/weekly contact with their assigned “newbie” and do stuff like:
-inform them of group rides and go on a group ride or two with their newbie
-help them with any mechanical/equipment issues
-carpool to a race or three with them
-primarily, just be someone to talk to and consult regarding any issues they may have
-independent of club affiliation
I’ve not thought in the context of charging for it. I would be willing to do something like this. I don’t think the effort level involved would have to be real high, and ideally people would be geographically co-located.
but the general “mentorship” idea is a good one, I think. better than a lack of it.
when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
That happens a lot…
when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
That happens a lot…
when I first joined GIS, I thought you were the king.. I’m not so sure now.
That happens a lot…
I think once someone decides it is worthwhile to pay for that service, they are already hooked on racing. Not that it’s not a valuable service or that you shouldn’t do it, but I don’t think it would have the same effect on the very bottom rungs.
The problem, as I see it, is a real shortage of good beginner’s races.
For example, Northfield is a great race, but the course is too selective to put 4s and 5s together without dropping a quarter of the field.
Same for the Capital Crit. Great race, great atmosphere, great organization, but that hairpin is deadly for novices.
I think Homme pretty much nailed what goes into making a good race for beginners:
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing. Unattached rider fees also kinda hurt, but that’s not as bad.
It’s been said that racing is tough, expensive, demanding sport, so if you can’t handle it at the start maybe you shouldn’t join. But I think everyone has to start somewhere, and the better riders benefit from having a large base of beginners.
I think once someone decides it is worthwhile to pay for that service, they are already hooked on racing. Not that it’s not a valuable service or that you shouldn’t do it, but I don’t think it would have the same effect on the very bottom rungs.
The problem, as I see it, is a real shortage of good beginner’s races.
For example, Northfield is a great race, but the course is too selective to put 4s and 5s together without dropping a quarter of the field.
Same for the Capital Crit. Great race, great atmosphere, great organization, but that hairpin is deadly for novices.
I think Homme pretty much nailed what goes into making a good race for beginners:
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing. Unattached rider fees also kinda hurt, but that’s not as bad.
It’s been said that racing is tough, expensive, demanding sport, so if you can’t handle it at the start maybe you shouldn’t join. But I think everyone has to start somewhere, and the better riders benefit from having a large base of beginners.
I think once someone decides it is worthwhile to pay for that service, they are already hooked on racing. Not that it’s not a valuable service or that you shouldn’t do it, but I don’t think it would have the same effect on the very bottom rungs.
The problem, as I see it, is a real shortage of good beginner’s races.
For example, Northfield is a great race, but the course is too selective to put 4s and 5s together without dropping a quarter of the field.
Same for the Capital Crit. Great race, great atmosphere, great organization, but that hairpin is deadly for novices.
I think Homme pretty much nailed what goes into making a good race for beginners:
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing. Unattached rider fees also kinda hurt, but that’s not as bad.
It’s been said that racing is tough, expensive, demanding sport, so if you can’t handle it at the start maybe you shouldn’t join. But I think everyone has to start somewhere, and the better riders benefit from having a large base of beginners.
I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
I think this stuff can be taught, it was taught to me. Like anything, once you practice enough it will become intuitive.
If you are already hooked up with a team or club or group of riders that you trust and that have already taken you under their wing then this service would probably not be of interest or necessary.
I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
I think this stuff can be taught, it was taught to me. Like anything, once you practice enough it will become intuitive.
If you are already hooked up with a team or club or group of riders that you trust and that have already taken you under their wing then this service would probably not be of interest or necessary.
I guess, my question for your proposed type of services would be, how is it different than the team mentor model that is available, and can this stuff really be taught anyway? I feel like even though people tell me what to look for in races, it still needs to be intuitive. Can I really get this some way other that just by gaining experience?
I think this stuff can be taught, it was taught to me. Like anything, once you practice enough it will become intuitive.
If you are already hooked up with a team or club or group of riders that you trust and that have already taken you under their wing then this service would probably not be of interest or necessary.
I like SickBoy’s idea a lot. The model here has been ‘join a team’ to get information, but many novices are disappointed that they’re not learning what they want, but are afraid to ask questions (and don’t even know what questions to ask!). Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race. He/she would tow dropped riders back into the field, take some riders aside if they did something dangerous, rally a chase into a proper paceline, etc. In the absence of such beginner races, an experienced local racer might provide a similar function. I learned a lot that way. Clearly there is a need for some kind of tactical instruction, even if novices don’t know it yet.
I like SickBoy’s idea a lot. The model here has been ‘join a team’ to get information, but many novices are disappointed that they’re not learning what they want, but are afraid to ask questions (and don’t even know what questions to ask!). Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race. He/she would tow dropped riders back into the field, take some riders aside if they did something dangerous, rally a chase into a proper paceline, etc. In the absence of such beginner races, an experienced local racer might provide a similar function. I learned a lot that way. Clearly there is a need for some kind of tactical instruction, even if novices don’t know it yet.
I like SickBoy’s idea a lot. The model here has been ‘join a team’ to get information, but many novices are disappointed that they’re not learning what they want, but are afraid to ask questions (and don’t even know what questions to ask!). Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race. He/she would tow dropped riders back into the field, take some riders aside if they did something dangerous, rally a chase into a proper paceline, etc. In the absence of such beginner races, an experienced local racer might provide a similar function. I learned a lot that way. Clearly there is a need for some kind of tactical instruction, even if novices don’t know it yet.
Hey, if some of you guys want to volunteer your time to be race mentors than I am all for it.
But I am talking about something more than taking them on a group ride and car pooling with them to a race. Those are good, but I am talking about actually teaching them how to ride their bike. This would be a bit more of an investment of time and energy.
Hey, if some of you guys want to volunteer your time to be race mentors than I am all for it.
But I am talking about something more than taking them on a group ride and car pooling with them to a race. Those are good, but I am talking about actually teaching them how to ride their bike. This would be a bit more of an investment of time and energy.
Hey, if some of you guys want to volunteer your time to be race mentors than I am all for it.
But I am talking about something more than taking them on a group ride and car pooling with them to a race. Those are good, but I am talking about actually teaching them how to ride their bike. This would be a bit more of an investment of time and energy.
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing.
Adam Bergman was a 5 when he started racing at the track. I don’t think it intimidated him. He and DS singlehandedly (doublehandedly?) shredded every race they were in, in the first 1k of the race most of the time.
Obviously that is an extreme example, but I don’t think that being labeled a “5″ means that you suck and 4’s can drop you. It means you are new, that is all. There are a lot of guys who are 5’s who are a lot stronger than their road category may indicate, coming from a triathlon, cx or MTB background. I am willing to bet that at least 35% of cat 4/5 races are being won by 5’s, so (to a degree) the seperate 5’s argument is crap.
About 5 years ago, T10K had seperate 4’s and 5’s fields and the breakaway in the 5’s caught and passed us 4’s when we had started 5 minutes in front of them. Keith Bianchi might remember that, he was leading the charge.
So, my point is that if a rider is not fit enough to stay with the leaders in a 4’s/5’s race, that he’s likely not fit enough to stay with a 5’s only field.
However, offering both categories (4/5, and then also a 5/Citizen) and suggesting that 5’s who may be stronger riders place themselves in the 4/5 rather than 5/Cit, may solve the problem. But that requires people to actively choose a higher category.
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing.
Adam Bergman was a 5 when he started racing at the track. I don’t think it intimidated him. He and DS singlehandedly (doublehandedly?) shredded every race they were in, in the first 1k of the race most of the time.
Obviously that is an extreme example, but I don’t think that being labeled a “5″ means that you suck and 4’s can drop you. It means you are new, that is all. There are a lot of guys who are 5’s who are a lot stronger than their road category may indicate, coming from a triathlon, cx or MTB background. I am willing to bet that at least 35% of cat 4/5 races are being won by 5’s, so (to a degree) the seperate 5’s argument is crap.
About 5 years ago, T10K had seperate 4’s and 5’s fields and the breakaway in the 5’s caught and passed us 4’s when we had started 5 minutes in front of them. Keith Bianchi might remember that, he was leading the charge.
So, my point is that if a rider is not fit enough to stay with the leaders in a 4’s/5’s race, that he’s likely not fit enough to stay with a 5’s only field.
However, offering both categories (4/5, and then also a 5/Citizen) and suggesting that 5’s who may be stronger riders place themselves in the 4/5 rather than 5/Cit, may solve the problem. But that requires people to actively choose a higher category.
I really think that putting 4s and 5s together is one of the biggest hurdles to getting into racing.
Adam Bergman was a 5 when he started racing at the track. I don’t think it intimidated him. He and DS singlehandedly (doublehandedly?) shredded every race they were in, in the first 1k of the race most of the time.
Obviously that is an extreme example, but I don’t think that being labeled a “5″ means that you suck and 4’s can drop you. It means you are new, that is all. There are a lot of guys who are 5’s who are a lot stronger than their road category may indicate, coming from a triathlon, cx or MTB background. I am willing to bet that at least 35% of cat 4/5 races are being won by 5’s, so (to a degree) the seperate 5’s argument is crap.
About 5 years ago, T10K had seperate 4’s and 5’s fields and the breakaway in the 5’s caught and passed us 4’s when we had started 5 minutes in front of them. Keith Bianchi might remember that, he was leading the charge.
So, my point is that if a rider is not fit enough to stay with the leaders in a 4’s/5’s race, that he’s likely not fit enough to stay with a 5’s only field.
However, offering both categories (4/5, and then also a 5/Citizen) and suggesting that 5’s who may be stronger riders place themselves in the 4/5 rather than 5/Cit, may solve the problem. But that requires people to actively choose a higher category.
Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race.
Coaches are allowed to ride in the Opus race series…if reading a race/race tactics can be taught, Opus would be a good opportunity…although that would require the newbie to actually be able to hang with the pack.
Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race.
Coaches are allowed to ride in the Opus race series…if reading a race/race tactics can be taught, Opus would be a good opportunity…although that would require the newbie to actually be able to hang with the pack.
Portland (yeah I know, shut up about Portland already!) had a weekly series in which a prominent local racer would volunteer to ride around with the newbies and teach race tactics during an actual practice race.
Coaches are allowed to ride in the Opus race series…if reading a race/race tactics can be taught, Opus would be a good opportunity…although that would require the newbie to actually be able to hang with the pack.
I also recall some bitching (by other riders) going on about said coaches riding along in the 4’s/5’s fields….
I also recall some bitching (by other riders) going on about said coaches riding along in the 4’s/5’s fields….
I also recall some bitching (by other riders) going on about said coaches riding along in the 4’s/5’s fields….
Yeah, that might be true. I think I read that Jan Ullrich and Vinokourov both won their first races too.
But you would hope that the guys with a ton of fitness and little experience would upgrade quickly.
I think we’re agreed that Cat5 are already bad enough in terms of the range of ability, and just adding in 4s makes it worse. I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
I know there are mixed opinions on having coaches ride in Opus, but I thought it was more helpful than not.
Yeah, that might be true. I think I read that Jan Ullrich and Vinokourov both won their first races too.
But you would hope that the guys with a ton of fitness and little experience would upgrade quickly.
I think we’re agreed that Cat5 are already bad enough in terms of the range of ability, and just adding in 4s makes it worse. I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
I know there are mixed opinions on having coaches ride in Opus, but I thought it was more helpful than not.
Yeah, that might be true. I think I read that Jan Ullrich and Vinokourov both won their first races too.
But you would hope that the guys with a ton of fitness and little experience would upgrade quickly.
I think we’re agreed that Cat5 are already bad enough in terms of the range of ability, and just adding in 4s makes it worse. I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
I know there are mixed opinions on having coaches ride in Opus, but I thought it was more helpful than not.
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
Sounds like Wisport with the exception of Separate categories. And, I wouldn’t send a beginner to a Wisport race.
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
Sounds like Wisport with the exception of Separate categories. And, I wouldn’t send a beginner to a Wisport race.
-Road race so you don’t get pulled
-Separate Citizens, 5, and 4 categories
-Deep placings
-Technically easy course
-Only a few selective hills so the pack might be split but not shattered
Sounds like Wisport with the exception of Separate categories. And, I wouldn’t send a beginner to a Wisport race.
I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
Ok, here’s the flip side of that.
While some promoters around here offer a 5’s field, almost none offer a 4/5 AND 5/cit field. Ergo, it adds time and complexity (and their siamese twin, expense), so….
Why should promoters do this?
and “because they should” or “to grow the sport” is not a good enough answer. I don’t think it’s fair to ask promoters to do extra things that may result in them losing money on a race, so how can this be done AND it be advantageous to promoters?
I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
Ok, here’s the flip side of that.
While some promoters around here offer a 5’s field, almost none offer a 4/5 AND 5/cit field. Ergo, it adds time and complexity (and their siamese twin, expense), so….
Why should promoters do this?
and “because they should” or “to grow the sport” is not a good enough answer. I don’t think it’s fair to ask promoters to do extra things that may result in them losing money on a race, so how can this be done AND it be advantageous to promoters?
I really like the idea of having a separate 5 field AND a 4/5 field.
Ok, here’s the flip side of that.
While some promoters around here offer a 5’s field, almost none offer a 4/5 AND 5/cit field. Ergo, it adds time and complexity (and their siamese twin, expense), so….
Why should promoters do this?
and “because they should” or “to grow the sport” is not a good enough answer. I don’t think it’s fair to ask promoters to do extra things that may result in them losing money on a race, so how can this be done AND it be advantageous to promoters?
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
To clarify, coaches help just one racer. The model I’m referring to has the mentor helping everyone. And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance. Adam Bergman is clearly not a new racer. That’s why Cat 1 roadies were put into the A cyclocross category, even if they were new to CX. Separating the women’s field ala MWCMR was a huge success, I would expect nothing different with the men.
To clarify, coaches help just one racer. The model I’m referring to has the mentor helping everyone. And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance. Adam Bergman is clearly not a new racer. That’s why Cat 1 roadies were put into the A cyclocross category, even if they were new to CX. Separating the women’s field ala MWCMR was a huge success, I would expect nothing different with the men.
To clarify, coaches help just one racer. The model I’m referring to has the mentor helping everyone. And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance. Adam Bergman is clearly not a new racer. That’s why Cat 1 roadies were put into the A cyclocross category, even if they were new to CX. Separating the women’s field ala MWCMR was a huge success, I would expect nothing different with the men.
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Yeah we have wandered off topic a bit…
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Yeah we have wandered off topic a bit…
Keep in mind what I was talking about originally: how to ride, not how to be fit.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Yeah we have wandered off topic a bit…
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Like Jason Snider. That dude crashes in every race he enters.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Like Jason Snider. That dude crashes in every race he enters.
I have ridden with lots of guys that have ridden for lots of years longer than I have that still don’t know how to ride their bike.
Like Jason Snider. That dude crashes in every race he enters.
if i remember correctly late 90s most races had
1/2/3, 3, 4/5, 5/cit races
now it seems that there is 1/2/3. 3/4 and 4/5-
i think that 4/5 races now are much faster than the 5/citizen races that i did 10years ago-the fields are also much bigger now than then i remember fields of 4 in some of the first races i did in 97 and 98
as far as bergman etc racing on the track they were 5s and im pretty sure that according to uscf rules they couldve upgraded before ever racing-it would have been good for adam to have a coach racing with him in the 4/5 races at the track
if i remember correctly late 90s most races had
1/2/3, 3, 4/5, 5/cit races
now it seems that there is 1/2/3. 3/4 and 4/5-
i think that 4/5 races now are much faster than the 5/citizen races that i did 10years ago-the fields are also much bigger now than then i remember fields of 4 in some of the first races i did in 97 and 98
as far as bergman etc racing on the track they were 5s and im pretty sure that according to uscf rules they couldve upgraded before ever racing-it would have been good for adam to have a coach racing with him in the 4/5 races at the track
if i remember correctly late 90s most races had
1/2/3, 3, 4/5, 5/cit races
now it seems that there is 1/2/3. 3/4 and 4/5-
i think that 4/5 races now are much faster than the 5/citizen races that i did 10years ago-the fields are also much bigger now than then i remember fields of 4 in some of the first races i did in 97 and 98
as far as bergman etc racing on the track they were 5s and im pretty sure that according to uscf rules they couldve upgraded before ever racing-it would have been good for adam to have a coach racing with him in the 4/5 races at the track
Well, here’s the thing.
New men want a 5/cit category.
new older men want there to always be a M4/5 category.
There are a fair amount of master’s men questioning why our master’s categories are 35+ and 50+ rather than 30+, 40+ and 50+ which is USCF standard.
I think there should be a women’s category that falls somewhere between the new racers (4) and women’s open, meaning I think that there should be a women’s 3 field offered.
Benita Warns insists that there should be equal mens and women’s masters categories.
And of course, no one ever better dare lump 15-18 year old juniors with the 11-14 year olds. Some even say that junior categories need to follow with USAC (2 year categories)- i.e. 15-16, 17-18, etc etc.
That’s a lot of categories.
and considering that, in europe, there are 3 categories: Citizen, Elite and pro, and cycling is a lot bigger here than it is there….
Well, here’s the thing.
New men want a 5/cit category.
new older men want there to always be a M4/5 category.
There are a fair amount of master’s men questioning why our master’s categories are 35+ and 50+ rather than 30+, 40+ and 50+ which is USCF standard.
I think there should be a women’s category that falls somewhere between the new racers (4) and women’s open, meaning I think that there should be a women’s 3 field offered.
Benita Warns insists that there should be equal mens and women’s masters categories.
And of course, no one ever better dare lump 15-18 year old juniors with the 11-14 year olds. Some even say that junior categories need to follow with USAC (2 year categories)- i.e. 15-16, 17-18, etc etc.
That’s a lot of categories.
and considering that, in europe, there are 3 categories: Citizen, Elite and pro, and cycling is a lot bigger here than it is there….
Well, here’s the thing.
New men want a 5/cit category.
new older men want there to always be a M4/5 category.
There are a fair amount of master’s men questioning why our master’s categories are 35+ and 50+ rather than 30+, 40+ and 50+ which is USCF standard.
I think there should be a women’s category that falls somewhere between the new racers (4) and women’s open, meaning I think that there should be a women’s 3 field offered.
Benita Warns insists that there should be equal mens and women’s masters categories.
And of course, no one ever better dare lump 15-18 year old juniors with the 11-14 year olds. Some even say that junior categories need to follow with USAC (2 year categories)- i.e. 15-16, 17-18, etc etc.
That’s a lot of categories.
and considering that, in europe, there are 3 categories: Citizen, Elite and pro, and cycling is a lot bigger here than it is there….
got that transposed, I meant “there rather than here”
got that transposed, I meant “there rather than here”
got that transposed, I meant “there rather than here”
I’m kinda with PlanB on this one. I also agree with Andy that it’s not a good idea to put responsibility on race promoters to both run races and be a training ground for newbies at the same time.
So, what I’m sayin is keep 4/5 fields, and have more 3/4 fields too as a way for existing racers to progress. New racers need easier and more informal ways to “get their feet wet”. Something where they can learn some pack skills, but not be killing each other navigating tricky corners or going for the sprint for 20th place, etc. Have some experienced racers that can ride along or set the pace for them. More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that), or maybe longer road circuit courses.
I think this would entice those “recreational rider” talents out there, and give them some experience so when they show up for a ROY event they are not gonna get unceremoniously dropped (and never come back), or worse, take out the field because of their lack of skillz.
I’m kinda with PlanB on this one. I also agree with Andy that it’s not a good idea to put responsibility on race promoters to both run races and be a training ground for newbies at the same time.
So, what I’m sayin is keep 4/5 fields, and have more 3/4 fields too as a way for existing racers to progress. New racers need easier and more informal ways to “get their feet wet”. Something where they can learn some pack skills, but not be killing each other navigating tricky corners or going for the sprint for 20th place, etc. Have some experienced racers that can ride along or set the pace for them. More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that), or maybe longer road circuit courses.
I think this would entice those “recreational rider” talents out there, and give them some experience so when they show up for a ROY event they are not gonna get unceremoniously dropped (and never come back), or worse, take out the field because of their lack of skillz.
I’m kinda with PlanB on this one. I also agree with Andy that it’s not a good idea to put responsibility on race promoters to both run races and be a training ground for newbies at the same time.
So, what I’m sayin is keep 4/5 fields, and have more 3/4 fields too as a way for existing racers to progress. New racers need easier and more informal ways to “get their feet wet”. Something where they can learn some pack skills, but not be killing each other navigating tricky corners or going for the sprint for 20th place, etc. Have some experienced racers that can ride along or set the pace for them. More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that), or maybe longer road circuit courses.
I think this would entice those “recreational rider” talents out there, and give them some experience so when they show up for a ROY event they are not gonna get unceremoniously dropped (and never come back), or worse, take out the field because of their lack of skillz.
Be thankful that you even have a Cat 5 option. In CO, Cat 4 is as low as they go for cats in ACA. Not too encouraging for new riders. Cat 4s in CO are fast – I’d put them up against the MN 3s any day. How would you like to jump into that for your 1st race?
Be thankful that you even have a Cat 5 option. In CO, Cat 4 is as low as they go for cats in ACA. Not too encouraging for new riders. Cat 4s in CO are fast – I’d put them up against the MN 3s any day. How would you like to jump into that for your 1st race?
Be thankful that you even have a Cat 5 option. In CO, Cat 4 is as low as they go for cats in ACA. Not too encouraging for new riders. Cat 4s in CO are fast – I’d put them up against the MN 3s any day. How would you like to jump into that for your 1st race?
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing. I know that people will say just to take the beginners course, but living in Mankato and working a full time job doesnt afford me that option.
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing. I know that people will say just to take the beginners course, but living in Mankato and working a full time job doesnt afford me that option.
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing. I know that people will say just to take the beginners course, but living in Mankato and working a full time job doesnt afford me that option.
More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that)
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that)
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
More stuff like Opus (HA! Smithers I bet you really like that)
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
Yes, cycling is a lot more popular in Europe. And because of that, it’s also a lot less intimidating to gain access into. I think you’re less likely to decide to start bike racing versus just growing up already doing it, much like basketball or football in the US.
Opus would be a great training race for beginning women. Unfortunately, there’s only one women’s field (and I’m not coming down on the Opus promoter, because I understand that time constraints necessitate this). That means most of the beginners are blown off the back by the first points sprint. You don’t learn a thing when you’re riding by yourself for three quarters of the race.
Homme has some good points about triathlons & WISport races. You’re welcome to participate no matter what level you’re at. There is an attitude projected by many local cyclists in public forums (such as this one) that a) they don’t want to waste time on needy newbies b) that people who are new to the sport shouldn’t bother starting to race until they’re going to be competitive in the beginning field (which we’ve already established isn’t always just “beginners”). I’ve already mentioned this over on Strat’s blog, but if I were just considering getting into the sport and had stumbled across such attitudes, I would feel too guilty to bother starting. So please, keep telling everyone that the promoter is losing money by having separate beginner’s fields, or that they should suck it up and quit whining if they can’t be competitive with the 4/5s. I guarantee you they’ll move on to a sport that’s more welcoming, and they will spare you their demands….and their entry fees.
Back on topic. Smithers, I think what you are proposing is a type of coaching that we generally lack here. Dag was working in-person with some of the juniors, and I think many of them visibly benefitted from it. This year I decided to invest in coaching. I had two choices: I could have someone I had never met (and likely would never meet) send me a coaching plan via email every month; or I could work with an experienced rider who didn’t have experience “coaching” per se (he’s a personal trainer), but would be able to work with me in person. I went with the latter, who was able to work with me a couple times a week on form/technique and tactics, AND give me feedback from watching me race each week. And I feel like I benefitted from this tremendously.
Yes, cycling is a lot more popular in Europe. And because of that, it’s also a lot less intimidating to gain access into. I think you’re less likely to decide to start bike racing versus just growing up already doing it, much like basketball or football in the US.
Opus would be a great training race for beginning women. Unfortunately, there’s only one women’s field (and I’m not coming down on the Opus promoter, because I understand that time constraints necessitate this). That means most of the beginners are blown off the back by the first points sprint. You don’t learn a thing when you’re riding by yourself for three quarters of the race.
Homme has some good points about triathlons & WISport races. You’re welcome to participate no matter what level you’re at. There is an attitude projected by many local cyclists in public forums (such as this one) that a) they don’t want to waste time on needy newbies b) that people who are new to the sport shouldn’t bother starting to race until they’re going to be competitive in the beginning field (which we’ve already established isn’t always just “beginners”). I’ve already mentioned this over on Strat’s blog, but if I were just considering getting into the sport and had stumbled across such attitudes, I would feel too guilty to bother starting. So please, keep telling everyone that the promoter is losing money by having separate beginner’s fields, or that they should suck it up and quit whining if they can’t be competitive with the 4/5s. I guarantee you they’ll move on to a sport that’s more welcoming, and they will spare you their demands….and their entry fees.
Back on topic. Smithers, I think what you are proposing is a type of coaching that we generally lack here. Dag was working in-person with some of the juniors, and I think many of them visibly benefitted from it. This year I decided to invest in coaching. I had two choices: I could have someone I had never met (and likely would never meet) send me a coaching plan via email every month; or I could work with an experienced rider who didn’t have experience “coaching” per se (he’s a personal trainer), but would be able to work with me in person. I went with the latter, who was able to work with me a couple times a week on form/technique and tactics, AND give me feedback from watching me race each week. And I feel like I benefitted from this tremendously.
Yes, cycling is a lot more popular in Europe. And because of that, it’s also a lot less intimidating to gain access into. I think you’re less likely to decide to start bike racing versus just growing up already doing it, much like basketball or football in the US.
Opus would be a great training race for beginning women. Unfortunately, there’s only one women’s field (and I’m not coming down on the Opus promoter, because I understand that time constraints necessitate this). That means most of the beginners are blown off the back by the first points sprint. You don’t learn a thing when you’re riding by yourself for three quarters of the race.
Homme has some good points about triathlons & WISport races. You’re welcome to participate no matter what level you’re at. There is an attitude projected by many local cyclists in public forums (such as this one) that a) they don’t want to waste time on needy newbies b) that people who are new to the sport shouldn’t bother starting to race until they’re going to be competitive in the beginning field (which we’ve already established isn’t always just “beginners”). I’ve already mentioned this over on Strat’s blog, but if I were just considering getting into the sport and had stumbled across such attitudes, I would feel too guilty to bother starting. So please, keep telling everyone that the promoter is losing money by having separate beginner’s fields, or that they should suck it up and quit whining if they can’t be competitive with the 4/5s. I guarantee you they’ll move on to a sport that’s more welcoming, and they will spare you their demands….and their entry fees.
Back on topic. Smithers, I think what you are proposing is a type of coaching that we generally lack here. Dag was working in-person with some of the juniors, and I think many of them visibly benefitted from it. This year I decided to invest in coaching. I had two choices: I could have someone I had never met (and likely would never meet) send me a coaching plan via email every month; or I could work with an experienced rider who didn’t have experience “coaching” per se (he’s a personal trainer), but would be able to work with me in person. I went with the latter, who was able to work with me a couple times a week on form/technique and tactics, AND give me feedback from watching me race each week. And I feel like I benefitted from this tremendously.
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing.
Remember he can’t even win the Cat3 Kierin State Chumpionships!
…
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing.
Remember he can’t even win the Cat3 Kierin State Chumpionships!
…
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
I’d be willing to pay for track coaching to learn the basics and tactics of track racing.
Remember he can’t even win the Cat3 Kierin State Chumpionships!
…
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
We will have to go to the video for proof of that…I have been assured that video is coming.
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
We will have to go to the video for proof of that…I have been assured that video is coming.
For the record I “threw” the state match sprints for cash….from Mrs. Smithers. Honest.
We will have to go to the video for proof of that…I have been assured that video is coming.
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
What’s with the anti-opus ride… I mean, Opus alternative ride?
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
What’s with the anti-opus ride… I mean, Opus alternative ride?
I don’t have a problem with Opus.
What’s with the anti-opus ride… I mean, Opus alternative ride?
I don’t have a problem with Opus, I just choose not to race at Opus.
I encourage those who want to race on Tuesday nights to race at Opus and then down at Dakota Tech.
I am pro-bike races. Anyone who thinks that I am not can go eat a whole can of pinto beans.
I don’t have a problem with Opus, I just choose not to race at Opus.
I encourage those who want to race on Tuesday nights to race at Opus and then down at Dakota Tech.
I am pro-bike races. Anyone who thinks that I am not can go eat a whole can of pinto beans.
I don’t have a problem with Opus, I just choose not to race at Opus.
I encourage those who want to race on Tuesday nights to race at Opus and then down at Dakota Tech.
I am pro-bike races. Anyone who thinks that I am not can go eat a whole can of pinto beans.
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Because the races are full of Americans.
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Because the races are full of Americans.
Smithers, why do you hate opus??
Because the races are full of Americans.
Smithers, why do you hate bean eaters?
Smithers, why do you hate bean eaters?
Smithers, why do you hate bean eaters?
This discussion highlights the need among many in the sport.
When thinking of racing everyone goes right to fitness. One of the best things about bike racing is the fact that there is more than just brute force to winning. I see a whole crop of strong riders that have no concept of how to ride in a group. Strength will cover this up, so they don’t see a problem. Sometimes this results in dangerous riding, but more often it is just annoying to ride in a group with these riders. Bike racing is more than VO max and watts. It seems that people have forgotten this.
Smithers, I think your idea has merit, but most of the people who need this type of thing would never think that they need it. This sounds like maybe a good venture for the MCF venture. Something to make the entry into this sport a bit easier. I was gonna say barriers, but that would start he whole cross couse debate thing right back up again……
This discussion highlights the need among many in the sport.
When thinking of racing everyone goes right to fitness. One of the best things about bike racing is the fact that there is more than just brute force to winning. I see a whole crop of strong riders that have no concept of how to ride in a group. Strength will cover this up, so they don’t see a problem. Sometimes this results in dangerous riding, but more often it is just annoying to ride in a group with these riders. Bike racing is more than VO max and watts. It seems that people have forgotten this.
Smithers, I think your idea has merit, but most of the people who need this type of thing would never think that they need it. This sounds like maybe a good venture for the MCF venture. Something to make the entry into this sport a bit easier. I was gonna say barriers, but that would start he whole cross couse debate thing right back up again……
This discussion highlights the need among many in the sport.
When thinking of racing everyone goes right to fitness. One of the best things about bike racing is the fact that there is more than just brute force to winning. I see a whole crop of strong riders that have no concept of how to ride in a group. Strength will cover this up, so they don’t see a problem. Sometimes this results in dangerous riding, but more often it is just annoying to ride in a group with these riders. Bike racing is more than VO max and watts. It seems that people have forgotten this.
Smithers, I think your idea has merit, but most of the people who need this type of thing would never think that they need it. This sounds like maybe a good venture for the MCF venture. Something to make the entry into this sport a bit easier. I was gonna say barriers, but that would start he whole cross couse debate thing right back up again……
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
It seems the limit of how much fitness difference can be compensated by smart riding is set by the maximum benefit one gets from drafting.
That is, even if there ws some magic race strategy that let me draft the whole time, I wouldn’t be able to win a Cat3 race. There is an absolute limit to how much wattage you need to hang with a pack going a given speed, even assuming the best tactics possible.
I figure that ideally one would set the categories based on an index of fitness measures, so that the cutoffs put the same proportions of riders in each category.
Andy: Obviously one category is too few and thirty too many. The extra costs and complexity of adding more categories has to be balanced against the benefits of providing a “better” race for novices.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work–any one race isn’t going to suddenly convert all those triathletes who don’t really like running and swimming.
If you could somehow get all promoters (or even most) to add categories, then they might all be better off. Like a Prisoner’s Dilemma-type thing. That’s where coordinating bodies like the MCF can play a role.
Or, if some people have the cash and feel confident that there really is room for more beginners, they could sign up promoters to add lower catagories. You could pay the extra expense of adding these categories, but you keep some portion of the revenues from any additional racers.
That would eliminate the risks to any one promoter, but they would also give up the potential extra revenues. Like insurance, but upside-down.
It seems the limit of how much fitness difference can be compensated by smart riding is set by the maximum benefit one gets from drafting.
That is, even if there ws some magic race strategy that let me draft the whole time, I wouldn’t be able to win a Cat3 race. There is an absolute limit to how much wattage you need to hang with a pack going a given speed, even assuming the best tactics possible.
I figure that ideally one would set the categories based on an index of fitness measures, so that the cutoffs put the same proportions of riders in each category.
Andy: Obviously one category is too few and thirty too many. The extra costs and complexity of adding more categories has to be balanced against the benefits of providing a “better” race for novices.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work–any one race isn’t going to suddenly convert all those triathletes who don’t really like running and swimming.
If you could somehow get all promoters (or even most) to add categories, then they might all be better off. Like a Prisoner’s Dilemma-type thing. That’s where coordinating bodies like the MCF can play a role.
Or, if some people have the cash and feel confident that there really is room for more beginners, they could sign up promoters to add lower catagories. You could pay the extra expense of adding these categories, but you keep some portion of the revenues from any additional racers.
That would eliminate the risks to any one promoter, but they would also give up the potential extra revenues. Like insurance, but upside-down.
It seems the limit of how much fitness difference can be compensated by smart riding is set by the maximum benefit one gets from drafting.
That is, even if there ws some magic race strategy that let me draft the whole time, I wouldn’t be able to win a Cat3 race. There is an absolute limit to how much wattage you need to hang with a pack going a given speed, even assuming the best tactics possible.
I figure that ideally one would set the categories based on an index of fitness measures, so that the cutoffs put the same proportions of riders in each category.
Andy: Obviously one category is too few and thirty too many. The extra costs and complexity of adding more categories has to be balanced against the benefits of providing a “better” race for novices.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work–any one race isn’t going to suddenly convert all those triathletes who don’t really like running and swimming.
If you could somehow get all promoters (or even most) to add categories, then they might all be better off. Like a Prisoner’s Dilemma-type thing. That’s where coordinating bodies like the MCF can play a role.
Or, if some people have the cash and feel confident that there really is room for more beginners, they could sign up promoters to add lower catagories. You could pay the extra expense of adding these categories, but you keep some portion of the revenues from any additional racers.
That would eliminate the risks to any one promoter, but they would also give up the potential extra revenues. Like insurance, but upside-down.
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
No, not yet. Still pondering.
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
No, not yet. Still pondering.
Should I let Mrs Smithers know that you’ll be dismissing your employer in favor of this personal bike riding coaching passion…
No, not yet. Still pondering.
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Or they think that they do and they think that they are…
Regardless, the comment war was Tuesday, not today. So stuff it.
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Or they think that they do and they think that they are…
Regardless, the comment war was Tuesday, not today. So stuff it.
Maybe they have concept of how to ride in a group and are just putting the screws to you, Ped…
Or they think that they do and they think that they are…
Regardless, the comment war was Tuesday, not today. So stuff it.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work
Hence a beginner’s race series. Learn with other beginners, then send them out to the big leagues.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work
Hence a beginner’s race series. Learn with other beginners, then send them out to the big leagues.
One problem is that any one promoter bears the full cost of adding a Citizen’s category, but the benefits of getting more beginners into the sport accrue to all promoters. That’s why leaving it up to individual promoters might not work
Hence a beginner’s race series. Learn with other beginners, then send them out to the big leagues.
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
That’s too bad.
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
That’s too bad.
I’ve learned everything about bike racing I know from reading this awesome blog!
That’s too bad.
Last spring, we (LSC) had a Opus clinic for beginners before the series started and we had a good turnout. We had some experienced racers give advice and lead groups around the course followed by mock races. We had a Cat 5 field for the men in the Opus series. This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this. The MCF wanted to produce a list on the Start Biking web page highlighting “beginners” races, but it never got off the ground. Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
Last spring, we (LSC) had a Opus clinic for beginners before the series started and we had a good turnout. We had some experienced racers give advice and lead groups around the course followed by mock races. We had a Cat 5 field for the men in the Opus series. This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this. The MCF wanted to produce a list on the Start Biking web page highlighting “beginners” races, but it never got off the ground. Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
Last spring, we (LSC) had a Opus clinic for beginners before the series started and we had a good turnout. We had some experienced racers give advice and lead groups around the course followed by mock races. We had a Cat 5 field for the men in the Opus series. This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this. The MCF wanted to produce a list on the Start Biking web page highlighting “beginners” races, but it never got off the ground. Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
Don’t you guys sleep?
Don’t you guys sleep?
Don’t you guys sleep?
Skibby, in your release/entry form you should customize it and have a section: “what got you into bike racing?”
a. Lance/lemond
b. a friend
c. a co-worker/fellow student
d. saw a bike race on tv
e. saw a bike race in my hood
f. magazine/news paper
g. info in bike shop
h. internet
i. triathlon
m. bmx
K. mtn biking
R. exercize alternative
S. info posted at health club
ran outta letters
Skibby, in your release/entry form you should customize it and have a section: “what got you into bike racing?”
a. Lance/lemond
b. a friend
c. a co-worker/fellow student
d. saw a bike race on tv
e. saw a bike race in my hood
f. magazine/news paper
g. info in bike shop
h. internet
i. triathlon
m. bmx
K. mtn biking
R. exercize alternative
S. info posted at health club
ran outta letters
Skibby, in your release/entry form you should customize it and have a section: “what got you into bike racing?”
a. Lance/lemond
b. a friend
c. a co-worker/fellow student
d. saw a bike race on tv
e. saw a bike race in my hood
f. magazine/news paper
g. info in bike shop
h. internet
i. triathlon
m. bmx
K. mtn biking
R. exercize alternative
S. info posted at health club
ran outta letters
Timmer,
You should add: T: had nothing better to do.
Timmer,
You should add: T: had nothing better to do.
Timmer,
You should add: T: had nothing better to do.
“And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance.”
Interesting point, I was a 5, but accumulated 28 upgrade points in 4/5 races last season. But, the only way you upgrade from 5 to 4 is by completeing races. Apparently you don’t go from 5 to 3. So now, I have upgraded to cat 4, but I will still be in the same field. I’ll just try to get the same points this year and move to 3.
“And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance.”
Interesting point, I was a 5, but accumulated 28 upgrade points in 4/5 races last season. But, the only way you upgrade from 5 to 4 is by completeing races. Apparently you don’t go from 5 to 3. So now, I have upgraded to cat 4, but I will still be in the same field. I’ll just try to get the same points this year and move to 3.
“And if Cat 5 racers are beating Cat 4 racers, clearly they need to upgrade, which is the point of separating 4s and 5s: giving new racers a chance.”
Interesting point, I was a 5, but accumulated 28 upgrade points in 4/5 races last season. But, the only way you upgrade from 5 to 4 is by completeing races. Apparently you don’t go from 5 to 3. So now, I have upgraded to cat 4, but I will still be in the same field. I’ll just try to get the same points this year and move to 3.
NCBN-
I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.
unless you got the points in cat5 fields only.
points from 4/5 fields would apply towards an upgrade…
i think this is right.
NCBN-
I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.
unless you got the points in cat5 fields only.
points from 4/5 fields would apply towards an upgrade…
i think this is right.
NCBN-
I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.
unless you got the points in cat5 fields only.
points from 4/5 fields would apply towards an upgrade…
i think this is right.
Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
That’s exactly why I’m doing it. That’s the most obvious thing that’s missing from the site, and if I’d known about that when I moved here I would have done it.
This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this.
This is awesome and just makes so much sense. Actually just a separate wave might be good enough, depending on how long the course is.
Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
That’s exactly why I’m doing it. That’s the most obvious thing that’s missing from the site, and if I’d known about that when I moved here I would have done it.
This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this.
This is awesome and just makes so much sense. Actually just a separate wave might be good enough, depending on how long the course is.
Maybe this year with the Poofter graciously volunteering we can have something like that…
That’s exactly why I’m doing it. That’s the most obvious thing that’s missing from the site, and if I’d known about that when I moved here I would have done it.
This year I’m trying to figure out a way to have Cat 4 women’s race (at the very least score them separately). Then both of our road races had cat 4 fields for women and cat 5 fields for men. It wasn’t cost prohibitive, in fact, if more racers show up because of this you cover any additional cost. I just don’t understand why more promoters don’t do this.
This is awesome and just makes so much sense. Actually just a separate wave might be good enough, depending on how long the course is.
silver ROOKIE –
“I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.”
That’s what I thought too, but the USCF didn’t agree. It’s not that big a deal for me anyway. I will likely be riding support for the 35+ crowd this next season, so my category no longer matters.
silver ROOKIE –
“I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.”
That’s what I thought too, but the USCF didn’t agree. It’s not that big a deal for me anyway. I will likely be riding support for the 35+ crowd this next season, so my category no longer matters.
silver ROOKIE –
“I think you can go to cat3 as you have gotten the points which can be used simaltaneously with the min. ammount of races.”
That’s what I thought too, but the USCF didn’t agree. It’s not that big a deal for me anyway. I will likely be riding support for the 35+ crowd this next season, so my category no longer matters.
who did you talk to?
matt anderson said no with those results?
want advice?
by him a dime bag.
who did you talk to?
matt anderson said no with those results?
want advice?
by him a dime bag.
who did you talk to?
matt anderson said no with those results?
want advice?
by him a dime bag.
You have to be a 4 before you can accumulate points for upgrade to cat 3…. not sure I agree but that’s how the system works.
You have to be a 4 before you can accumulate points for upgrade to cat 3…. not sure I agree but that’s how the system works.
You have to be a 4 before you can accumulate points for upgrade to cat 3…. not sure I agree but that’s how the system works.
by him a dime bag.
What are you scurrilously accusing here?
by him a dime bag.
What are you scurrilously accusing here?
by him a dime bag.
What are you scurrilously accusing here?
man what an idiot.
who would “by” someone something?
man what an idiot.
who would “by” someone something?
man what an idiot.
who would “by” someone something?
incidentally this is the 2nd anniversary of the shooting to death of dimebag darrell 12/8/06
incidentally this is the 2nd anniversary of the shooting to death of dimebag darrell 12/8/06
incidentally this is the 2nd anniversary of the shooting to death of dimebag darrell 12/8/06
Thanks for the advice on the dime bag.
It wasn’t Matt Anderson – I applied through the USCF website, and it was supposed to be forwarded to the local rep. I forget who it went to, but it wasn’t Anderson. From Andy’s post, it sounds like they followed the rules.
Anyway – this year I need to learn how to help teammates in 35+, so my actual cat probably will not be an issue.
Thanks for the advice on the dime bag.
It wasn’t Matt Anderson – I applied through the USCF website, and it was supposed to be forwarded to the local rep. I forget who it went to, but it wasn’t Anderson. From Andy’s post, it sounds like they followed the rules.
Anyway – this year I need to learn how to help teammates in 35+, so my actual cat probably will not be an issue.
Thanks for the advice on the dime bag.
It wasn’t Matt Anderson – I applied through the USCF website, and it was supposed to be forwarded to the local rep. I forget who it went to, but it wasn’t Anderson. From Andy’s post, it sounds like they followed the rules.
Anyway – this year I need to learn how to help teammates in 35+, so my actual cat probably will not be an issue.